lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 9, 2010 8:30:38 GMT -5
George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld covered up that hundreds of innocent men were sent to the Guantánamo Bay prison camp because they feared that releasing them would harm the push for war in Iraq and the broader War on Terror, according to a new document obtained by The Times.
The accusations were made by Lawrence Wilkerson, a top aide to Colin Powell, the former Republican Secretary of State, in a signed declaration to support a lawsuit filed by a Guantánamo detainee. It is the first time that such allegations have been made by a senior member of the Bush Administration.
Colonel Wilkerson, who was General Powell’s chief of staff when he ran the State Department, was most critical of Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld. He claimed that the former Vice-President and Defence Secretary knew that the majority of the initial 742 detainees sent to Guantánamo in 2002 were innocent but believed that it was “politically impossible to release them”.
General Powell, who left the Bush Administration in 2005, angry about the misinformation that he unwittingly gave the world when he made the case for the invasion of Iraq at the UN, is understood to have backed Colonel Wilkerson’s declaration.
Colonel Wilkerson, a long-time critic of the Bush Administration’s approach to counter-terrorism and the war in Iraq, claimed that the majority of detainees — children as young as 12 and men as old as 93, he said — never saw a US soldier when they were captured. He said that many were turned over by Afghans and Pakistanis for up to $5,000. Little or no evidence was produced as to why they had been taken.
He also claimed that one reason Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld did not want the innocent detainees released was because “the detention efforts would be revealed as the incredibly confused operation that they were”. This was “not acceptable to the Administration and would have been severely detrimental to the leadership at DoD [Mr Rumsfeld at the Defence Department]”.
Referring to Mr Cheney, Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, asserted: “He had absolutely no concern that the vast majority of Guantánamo detainees were innocent ... If hundreds of innocent individuals had to suffer in order to detain a handful of hardcore terrorists, so be it.”
He alleged that for Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld “innocent people languishing in Guantánamo for years was justified by the broader War on Terror and the small number of terrorists who were responsible for the September 11 attacks”.
He added: “I discussed the issue of the Guantánamo detainees with Secretary Powell. I learnt that it was his view that it was not just Vice-President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld, but also President Bush who was involved in all of the Guantánamo decision making.”
Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld, Colonel Wilkerson said, deemed the incarceration of innocent men acceptable if some genuine militants were captured, leading to a better intelligence picture of Iraq at a time when the Bush Administration was desperate to find a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, “thus justifying the Administration’s plans for war with that country”.
He signed the declaration in support of Adel Hassan Hamad, a Sudanese man who was held at Guantánamo Bay from March 2003 until December 2007. Mr Hamad claims that he was tortured by US agents while in custody and yesterday filed a damages action against a list of American officials.
Defenders of Guantánamo said that detainees began to be released as early as September 2002, nine months after the first prisoners were sent to the jail at the US naval base in Cuba. By the time Mr Bush left office more than 530 detainees had been freed.
A spokesman for Mr Bush said of Colonel Wilkerson’s allegations: “We are not going to have any comment on that.” A former associate to Mr Rumsfeld said that Mr Wilkerson's assertions were completely untrue.
The associate said the former Defence Secretary had worked harder than anyone to get detainees released and worked assiduously to keep the prison population as small as possible. Mr Cheney’s office did not respond.
There are currently about 180 detainees left in the facility.
Any comments ?
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Post by wolfknight on Apr 11, 2010 0:16:26 GMT -5
What proof is offered of these allegations? Second hand information coming from a man who is/was KNOWN to not much like the administration?
What's next? Telling us that a reporter has found that many Gitmo detainees are innocent of wrongdoing, and his only source of information was that he asked them?
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 14, 2010 5:43:45 GMT -5
What proof is offered of these allegations? Second hand information coming from a man who is/was KNOWN to not much like the administration? What's next? Telling us that a reporter has found that many Gitmo detainees are innocent of wrongdoing, and his only source of information was that he asked them? And what kind of proof would "suits" you ? If you're waiting for W to admit it, well, I think that cows would fly before that.. ;D |
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Post by wolfknight on Apr 20, 2010 13:29:32 GMT -5
How about ANY proof?
Right now, this allegation that George Bush KNEW is nothing more than hearsay. So, in other words, there NOTHING upon which to make such a bold claim. If there were some real documentation, records of meetings that have been covered up, blocks in place to the release of cogent records, things like that.
Something more than a single man making a claim.
But I know that expecting anything like that to be the barometer upon which YOU would base actuality is akin to the flying cows.
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Post by eliotness on Apr 20, 2010 23:05:39 GMT -5
Every person at Gitmo was apprehended on the battlefield fighting in one manner or another against allied forces or connected to terrorism plots worldwide. Furthermore, the Islamic religion forces all Muslims to either participate or support terrorism. There is no such thing as an innocent Muslim. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive to the nth degree.
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 22, 2010 10:20:15 GMT -5
How about ANY proof? Right now, this allegation that George Bush KNEW is nothing more than hearsay. So, in other words, there NOTHING upon which to make such a bold claim. If there were some real documentation, records of meetings that have been covered up, blocks in place to the release of cogent records, things like that. Something more than a single man making a claim. But I know that expecting anything like that to be the barometer upon which YOU would base actuality is akin to the flying cows. You really think that that kind of meeting was recorded ? ;D So, if I get it well, any allegation against the former administration would only be hearsay ? |
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 22, 2010 10:26:49 GMT -5
Every person at Gitmo was apprehended on the battlefield fighting in one manner or another against allied forces or connected to terrorism plots worldwide. Furthermore, the Islamic religion forces all Muslims to either participate or support terrorism. There is no such thing as an innocent Muslim. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive to the nth degree.  Several of those detainees weren't apprehended on the battelfield as you claim it, but in their villages. And all of thoses guys have been released... As it is written, at that time you just had to go to the nearest US soldier and say "that guy is a terrorist"... you got money, and the guy you didn't like was sent to gitmo, without any proof... Gestapo style.... And for your comments on the islamic religion, well it appears that you know shit about the subjet, and all your comments are sweating with hate, racism, fascism |
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Post by eliotness on Apr 23, 2010 1:59:08 GMT -5
Several of those detainees weren't apprehended on the battelfield as you claim it, but in their villages. And all of thoses guys have been released... As it is written, at that time you just had to go to the nearest US soldier and say "that guy is a terrorist"... you got money, and the guy you didn't like was sent to gitmo, without any proof... Gestapo style.... Many detainees that have been released have been reapprehended fighting against U.S. and allied forces. Typical Liberal, unable to make a cogent argument without resorting to profanity. Liberalism really is the sanctuary of the feeble minded. It is hard for them to be sweating of racism, when I didn't mention anything about race. It is hard for them to be sweating Facism, when Facism is a political system and I didn't mention politics in my comment. Furthermore, Facism is a Liberal political belief system and as a Conservative, I couldn't be a Facist. But I am sure that as a Liberal, you probably aren't intelligent enough to understand that Socialism, Facism, and Communism are all Liberal concepts. I mean I have never met or heard an intelligent Liberal in my life. Liberalism is bascially a mental disease. Liberals can't use reason or logic, but resort to emotion and feelings. Additionally, if you ever read the Qur'an, you would realize that the Qur'an mandates that all Muslims either convert or kill infidels, or non-believers, thus my statement is correct: The Islamic religion forces all Muslims to either participate or support terrorism. I am sure that Theo Van Gogh would agree with me, but wait he was killed by a Muslim for expressing anti-Muslim views. You really don't see many Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Budhists threatening the lives of those that disagree with their beliefs. 99% of all the terrorists in the world are Muslim. |
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 23, 2010 8:22:13 GMT -5
Many detainees that have been released have been reapprehended fighting against U.S. and allied forces. Well, if someone puts you in gitmo for months, tortured you for months and that you did nothing, I think that it might be normal and logical that once you're back in your country your only desire is to get revenge on those people who mistreated you for months... Typical Liberal, unable to make a cogent argument without resorting to profanity. Liberalism really is the sanctuary of the feeble minded. It is hard for them to be sweating of racism, when I didn't mention anything about race. Dislike a religion, an ethnical origin, or sexual orientation can be assimilated to racism It is hard for them to be sweating Facism, when Facism is a political system and I didn't mention politics in my comment. You don't need to make a political comment to express a fascist point of vue Furthermore, Facism is a Liberal political belief system and as a Conservative, I couldn't be a Facist. Your way of conservatism walks on the fascism footseps But I am sure that as a Liberal, you probably aren't intelligent enough to understand that Socialism, Facism, and Communism are all Liberal concepts. Communism and fascism liberal ? Geez, get back on earth boy, open a dictionnary and learn... And don't worry for my IQ, he's much more developped than yours, and have not doubt about that at all I mean I have never met or heard an intelligent Liberal in my life. Liberalism is bascially a mental disease. Liberals can't use reason or logic, but resort to emotion and feelings. Despising people who don't think like you, here we go, fascist comments again.. Really a brown shirt would suits you perfectly Additionally, if you ever read the Qur'an, you would realize that the Qur'an mandates that all Muslims either convert or kill infidels, or non-believers, thus my statement is correct: The Islamic religion forces all Muslims to either participate or support terrorism. I am sure that Theo Van Gogh would agree with me, but wait he was killed by a Muslim for expressing anti-Muslim views. You really don't see many Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Budhists threatening the lives of those that disagree with their beliefs. 99% of all the terrorists in the world are Muslim. Your understanding of the Qu'ran is the same than the extremists. Qu'ran never asked the muslims to kill people and to commit bombings. No christians have ever threatened lives of the people who disgagree with their beliefs ? What about the crusades ? Better to forget that part of the history isn't ? |
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Post by eliotness on Apr 23, 2010 15:48:23 GMT -5
Well, if someone puts you in gitmo for months, tortured you for months and that you did nothing, I think that it might be normal and logical that once you're back in your country your only desire is to get revenge on those people who mistreated you for months... Well, no one has been tortured at Guantanamo Bay, so this statement is invalid. Racism: Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. It doesn't have anything to do with religion, sexual orientation. You obviously don't understand the term. How so? Fascism is a political system where the government controls pretty much everything. By the way, the word is view. Nothing I said supports in any manner Fascism. As a Conservative I favor less governmental control over people not more. I merely pointed out that Islam forces people to practice or support terrorism. Look at the recent death threats by Muslim groups to Trey Parker and Matt Stone because their show South Park depicted Islam in a negative light. From Dictionary.com Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Communism: 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state. 2. a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party. Socialism: theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. All of these are Liberal concepts, increased control by a centralized government of substantially all aspects of life. State run health care, state run schools, state run businesses: banks, auto manufacturing, etc., removal of individual rights, e.g. removal of firearms from private ownership. The closest thing the Unted States has come to Fascism is with our current President, Obama. Who is about as fascist as one could get. He is rather reminiscent of Benito Mussolini or Adolf Hitler. And one must remember that even Hitler was elected into office. I actually have a genius IQ, myself. I also have two graduate degrees, a Master of Science in Forensic Sciences and a Doctorate of Jurisprudence. I am also an Attorney. By the way the word is developed. You really much into to spelling or punctuation, are you? Again, as I stated supra, Brown Shirts is a reference to the earky state police forces under Hitler, who was a Liberal. He favored a completely state run society. Conservatives favor small government, with as little intrusion into our lives by the government as possible. I've read the Qu'ran, although in English, and it clearly states that Muslims are not allowed to be friends with non-Muslims. It also states that Muslims are required to convert non-Muslims to Islam, or to kill them. Actually large portions of the Qu'ran are just bastardizations of the Bible. You really don't know much about history yourself, do you? The Crusades were a repsonse by the Catholic Church to the Muslim invasion of the Spanish Peninsula (Portgugal and Spain) by Islamic forces. The crusades were done to stop the Islamic invasion of Europe. My guess is that you are either Muslim yourself and therefore are just hiding your beliefs, or are just a Leftist from Europe, whose mind has been clouded by years of years of Liberal indoctrination. The reality is that I don't hate you. I pity you. Within 40 years most of Europe will most likely be in Muslim control and they will probably exterminate all non-Muslims. So you will either be a victim of your naiveté regarding Islam or one of Europe's conquerers. |
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 26, 2010 9:21:47 GMT -5
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Post by eliotness on Apr 26, 2010 22:53:48 GMT -5
Well of course a Liberal would cite the leftist rag of the Washington Post, that has not had a legimate journalist on its staff since the newspaper was formed. The only people that read that newspaper are out and out Marxists.
Furthermore, "sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold" do not constute torture, regardless of what this woman states. She obviously does not understand the law. These techniques may be harsh interrogation, but not torture. Sustained isolation has been used in the U.S. criminal Justice system for 100 plus years. Sleep deprivation, nudity, and exposure to cold have been used in interrogation by U.S. and allied forces for well over 100 years also.
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Post by wolfknight on Apr 27, 2010 1:32:49 GMT -5
You really think that that kind of meeting was recorded ? ;D So, if I get it well, any allegation against the former administration would only be hearsay? Hard to record a meeting that never took place. ;D And yes, you get it well. Unless there is something to back up a claim made by a person about what another person said, that is THE definition of hearsay. As for "any allegation against the former administration", having some kind of proof would be needed for any kind of legitimacy. Listen, Patti. It makes ZERO sense that the Bush administration could have all these "secret" meetings and orders and it remain a secret for long. The White House leaks like a sieve. Has since the early part of the last century. That some doofus makes a claim that so completely fits what liberals the world over have already decided about Bush's activities there is not proof of anything except that he is saying EXACTLY what you want to hear. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to hear that Wilkerson will be selling a tell-all book before too long, and this kind of nonsense is just what is used to whet whistles of an uninformed book-buying public. Post something resembling proof, then we'll continue to talk about this topic as though it means something. Otherwise, this is nothing more than barking in the dark. |
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lepatte
Bachelors from Celiberal
Posts: 280
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Post by lepatte on Apr 28, 2010 2:08:59 GMT -5
Well of course a Liberal would cite the leftist rag of the Washington Post, that has not had a legimate journalist on its staff since the newspaper was formed. The only people that read that newspaper are out and out Marxists. Of course, how come I didn't think about that before ? Any newspaper who would speak about torture in Gitmo is a "leftist" newspaper... I guess that "The Guardian" is leftist too then as it reported tortures too ? ( www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jan/03/guantanamo.usa)And, please, stop talking about leftist... You don't know what a real leftist is, as you don't have any real ones in the US. Furthermore, "sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold" do not constute torture, regardless of what this woman states. She obviously does not understand the law. Yes, that is torture... There's no way to discuss about that. And you're a lawyer ? These techniques may be harsh interrogation, but not torture. Sustained isolation has been used in the U.S. criminal Justice system for 100 plus years. Sleep deprivation, nudity, and exposure to cold have been used in interrogation by U.S. and allied forces for well over 100 years also. Oh, because the US military used it, it's not torture ? Well, I've got a great news for you : IT IS TORTURE. Read the Geneva convention : General treatment of prisoners as: The obligation to treat humanely prisoners, the torture and all the acts of physical or psychological pressure on these last ones are strictly forbidden[/u] So, sleep deprivation, nudity, exposure to cold, etc is, therefore, a torture |
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Post by wolfknight on Apr 28, 2010 18:00:14 GMT -5
Read the Geneva Convention.
According to the document, it applies to:
"Persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
1. That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
2. That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
3. That of carrying arms openly;
4. That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."
Since terrorists do fit ANY of those categories, the Geneva Convention DOES NOT APPLY.
Regardless, exposure to cold, sleep deprivation, and nudity are NOT torture by any reasonable definition of the word. Sounds more like a frat hazing.
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Several of those detainees weren't apprehended on the battelfield as you claim it, but in their villages. And all of thoses guys have been released... As it is written, at that time you just had to go to the nearest US soldier and say "that guy is a terrorist"... you got money, and the guy you didn't like was sent to gitmo, without any proof... Gestapo style....